In The Workshop with Charles Neil

[Pitbull]

After many years of usage my trusty middle weight contractor table saw has met its match. It limped through life requiring upgrades to make it bearable (Incra Fence, mobile base, WWII blade) and with a constant bog on the motor I was successful with the many thousands of BF I pushed through it. It did well and was a great 1st saw. I knew this day would come and to be quite honest was anticipating it so that I would have a valid reason to fork over the funds to get a serious saw.

Well, after wrapping up a project I have been working on the last four weeks I knew it was time to step up. The arbor shaft had developed to much deflection in it now and that was a safety/quality issue for me. I got the green light from the wife and off I dove into the catalogs and internet to find my new workhorse.

Price was a big concern but so was safety. For months I had been looking at the Sawstop. It is an outstanding saw that I am sure all of you are aware of by now, but the price was over $4K by the time I could put it in my shop. That would never fit in my tool budget so I looked at option number 2. Powermatic and Jet. Again I took a look at the higher end models and liked what I saw. They had some neat options the most notable being the riving knife (powermatic also has wheeled base). However, aside from that I did not see much that much of a difference in quality of option 3. The Grizzly 1023 series.

Whatever saw I purchased the stock fence would not be used. I have used an Incra LS fence for over a year now and can not think of a single reason I would ever not use this fence. This played a big roll as well when buying the saw because I did not care how good the saw manufacturer claimed there stock fence system is over the competition. Compared to the Incra, there is no competition.

So after running the numbers and talking with people that own each of the saws I decided to go with the Grizzly 1023SL. I was sold on the price, features, and reliability that the owners had. Plus with the money I saved by buying this I could use to get some more gear for the shop.

Delivered to my shop the saw cost $1121 and will cost less once I sell the Shop Fox Classic fence it came with. I also purchased a HTC HRS-10 rolling base from Amazon.com. I can not say if it is better or worse than the Shop Fox version made for this saw bit it works fine and was about $30 cheaper.

The saw came shipped on a double pallet in 2 boxes. One has the fence, the other was the saw completely put together except for the cast iron wings and small miscellaneous parts. The saw pallet weighed just under 400lbs and the fence was about 70lbs. Both arrived with out a single scratch and were superbly packaged.

Picture of saw on pallets. Exterior box removed for clarity
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24542520@N06/2363281653/

Picture of fence box
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24542520@N06/2364108400/

When I ordered it I was concerned that I would need another person to help assemble the wings and move this saw onto the base but managed to do so by myself with not to much sweat. I am larger than the average person at 6'6" 230lbs but have some tips while assembling that could help anyone do it by themselves.

Picture of me by the saw
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24542520@N06/2363275147/sizes/l/

Picture of other parts boxed up on saw pallet
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24542520@N06/2363262029/sizes/l/

Picture of motor specs
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24542520@N06/2364101796/

Before purchasing I called and talked to some reps from other companies about the saws I mentioned before and I asked how they compared to the Grizzly. Most of them said, "It is a good saw, but..." or "Grizzly builds there saw with seconds that our manufacturer does not want to use". I found this hard to believe after talking to owners of the Grizzly saws but was still skeptical.

I was able to actually touch and mess around with every single one of the saws I was looking to purchase, except for the Grizzly. There are no local dealers and this was the hardest part about making the decision. The skepticism ended once the saw arrived and the nasty protective coating was scrubbed off. The scrubbing of this stuff was the most labor intense part of this build. I had to spend over an hour getting it off all the pieces that came with the saw. I can not complain to much because it did its job. All it took was a 1/4 roll of paper towels and half a can of Mineral Spirits.

Picture of protected top
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24542520@N06/2364097360/

Picture of cleaned top and wings
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24542520@N06/2364088522/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/24542520@N06/2364086598/sizes/l/

The fit, finish, and alignment of the top are about a great as you could expect. Here is a picture to show that sheen.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24542520@N06/2363253665/sizes/l/

Next up was moving the 400lb saw base to the mobile base before attaching anything. I just moved the saw off of the bottom pallet so that it was still sitting on the small pallet and pushed the base right next to it. Notice I used a 3/4" sheet of ply and set it into the base. This does 2 things. Raises the saw a little more, and provides an evenly distributed load to the corner braces of the mobile base. In the picture you can also see the 10' wire (10 guage) that comes pre wired with no plug.

See pic
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24542520@N06/2363249269/sizes/l/


I locked the base down and put one foot in front of it to hold it in place and shimmied the saw from side to side and pulled it to the edge of the pallet. Once it was almost falling off the pallet (all the while balancing the edge on the pallet while pulling it towards you) is when you let it touch the mobile base and slide it the rest of the way. Thats it. Its ready to roll and complete the install.

This saw is heavy duty. Its cast iron everything with a triple v-belt drive. Grizzly claims to use the heaviest handles in industry on the cranks. I don't doubt it. Check out how much just the solid the handle arm and handle lock weigh.

That just under 1 pound 9 ounces! It may not sound significant but it feels it.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24542520@N06/2364090652/

The saw has a magnetic switch. It acts like its own GFCI circuit breaker in a way. Also inside you can vary the amount of amps you want the saw to take before disabling its power. It is adjustable from 17amps-27amps. I am running a 220 30amp breaker on the line the saw is hooked up to. A grizzly tech told me I could set the switch to 24amps and be fine. Since it is designed to run at 18amps I only adjusted it to 20amps, if it cuts off I will adjust it for more, but don't think I will need to. A magnetic switch is a worthwhile investment from a safety and tool protection standpoint.

Magnetic switch outside
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24542520@N06/2363251147/

Magnetic switch inside
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24542520@N06/2363244945/sizes/l/

Next up was installing the wings. This could definitely be considered a two person job, but with a little ingenuity you can take the trouble out of it. What I did was to take the wing and hold it perpendicular to the table top. I grabbed one bolt while I was supporting the wing with my other arm and body and threaded it in almost all the way. Then it acted like a pivot hinge and I just swung it down it put the rest of the bolts in while all the weight was relived form the first bolt and tightened them almost all of the way as well.

To help with the alignment of the top I grabbed some scrap flat pieces of wood laying around the shop and two heavier duty clamps.

See pic
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24542520@N06/2363241223/

This pretty much did 95% of the alignment process. I worked from the front to the back of the saw tightening the bolts as I went. I had to push up a on the outside of the wing to bring everything even and flush. The top was milled perfectly and no shimming of either of the wings was required.

See pic
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24542520@N06/2364073820/

Pictures of fully assemble saw before fence

Saw back
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24542520@N06/2363239181/sizes/l/

Saw front
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24542520@N06/2363236537/sizes/l/

At this point I checked the blade for parallel to the miter slots, arbor run out, and blade miter angle. My testing method used a dial guage, framer's square, carpenter's square and a digital angle finder. Everything checked out exceptional except for the miter angles. I fixed those by adjusting the stops and was ready to continue.

Here is another shot with an 80 tooth Oshlun blade installed. Awesome blade for the money
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24542520@N06/2363227197/sizes/l/

The next part involved putting on the fence and since putting on an Incra fence is a whole write up in itself I will just show some pics.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/24542520@N06/2363222607/sizes/l/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/24542520@N06/2363218469/sizes/l/

The saw comes with a very decent miter guage that has an adjustable slide so that you can get rid of any slop. Since I already own an incra miter guauge with all the bells and whistles I will be using that on this saw as well.

This is a final pic of the completed saw after an hour of usage and my quest to save some more money by making a bunch of adjustable zero clearance inserts rather than purchasing them. Next up will be to make another small table wing to fill the void between the cast iron right wing and fence and a custom removable out feed table.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/24542520@N06/2364390618/sizes/l/

All in all this saw represents a tremendous value and the fit and finish of all of the pieces has been nothing but first rate. The motor purrs and is much quieter and way more powerful than my contractor saw and it p*ssed the nickel test every time and the penny test every now and then through a complete start up and shut down cycle. Had it not been on the mobile base I suspect it would p*ss the penny test more often.

I am trying to think of some negatives to write about this saw as I do not want it to seem like a biased review. As it sits I can not seem to think of any except its blade guard could use some work. I have never used a blade guard and have thought that all of the stock ones with the exception of the SawStop and Powermatic are bad designs. I opted not to install it and will be putting in a micro jig splitter in the zero clearance inserts for added safety. I never get my hand any where near a blade and always use a pusk stick even if I am well into the safety zone(if there is such a thing) Other than it lacking features such as a built in mobile system and a riving knife it does not have very many flaws.

With the addition of some excellent after market products made by Incra that I picked up for super cheap on Amazon during a special (20% off accessories) sale this saw still comes in cheaper than its competition.

After I have a few weeks usage on this saw I will update this and let you all know if I still think it was worth it, or if I should have spent more and got a Powermatic or Jet Deluxe.

FYI---

From the information that I have been able to obtain there are only two lines of saws that are still made in North America. All of General's(Canada) and just the Powermatic 66 (USA). Every other saw made by any manufacturer worth a grain of salt is now imported.
_________________
Have you ever noticed that in woodworking 'good enough' is never really good...nor enough?

Jason

[Ace HoleInOne]

Hey Pitbull:

Now I understand why you didn't get through all the A to Z DVD's. Nice score on the saw. Wax her up real good...that sea air is only good for breathing in.

-Ace-

P.S.

I'll have to post my recent little power tool purchase. You guys will get a laugh.

[CharlesNeil]

yep wax her up and get something made to finish.....nice saw,I do understand the price issue,its tough, In my world its easier to justify,but it sure aint easier to pay for.and when a camera cost more than a table saw,ouch! my butt just puckered,he he he....Ill be anxious to know how the griz does,keep us informed

[Pitbull]

Precision at its Finest


Well its been a month now and I would like to give an update on how this saw is performing for those interested.

Originally I thought it was dialed in perfectly from the factory but it turned out that the blade was just a hair out of alignment with the miter slots. This was not a huge issue to fix, but it would have been nicer if I had paid more attention to detail before I had hooked up my axillary table.

It took about 15 minutes in all to adjust this and was actually very easy compared to what I was expecting. It was just four hex bolts on each corner and a little tap here and there. I was back in business.

I took the original blade guard and put it away in the box until I started looking at quick change splitters for this saw and saw the price. I pulled out the stock guard assembly from inside its eternal resting place in the box and removed the plastic cover. Then I took a sawzall and and shapped it until I had a nice little removable quick change splitter. I used a file to round and bevel all the edges and then adjusted the mating part on the saw to make it parallel with the blade. It works flawlessly and it was free. The guard has a slotted bottom part that slips on the bolt. It can be removed with a twist of a wrench and reinstalled in a few seconds. I am very pleased.

Check pic:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24542520@N06/2458573483/sizes/l/in/photostream/

Next I wanted to build tough, slick, and flat auxillary table. I used a torsion box method and I had to drill two holes into my table saw wing to mount this on it, and two more bolts were used on the front and back rails each. I used a really nice sheet of hardboard that has some super laminate on either side that I picked up from free from a local big box. These are used as slip sheets for the tops of pallets of laminate wood flooring and have tons of uses. This stuff is tough as nails. In this pic you see the bottom and notice it looks like wood flooring. I used the other side for my table top. Both sides are slick but the flooring side had the tiniest of ridges.

see pic:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24542520@N06/2458578165/sizes/l/

This made the saw a little heavy on the right side so a pair of legs were in order. Since this saw is on a rolling base the legs needed to be fully adjustable. I found a perfect heavy duty set of legs from IKEA for $34. These are mounted to the bottom of the Incra rails and there is a little cubby hole on top of the leg assembly beneath the table top where i can store stuff...tape measure, pencil etc.

see pic:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24542520@N06/2459417444/sizes/l/in/photostream/


I have put the saw through its paces so far and it has lived up to my expectations. The 3 HP is plenty power full for anything I will do and the saw runs quiet and vibration free. I would have to say that it is a first class saw and unless the motor stops working on it after the 1 year warranty this is the best deal on the market by far.

Just as I ordered this it appears Grizzly is now starting to add riving knives to some of their saws. Although this is still no SAWSTOP it is a start. This is currently not available on this 10" saw but I would suspect it will be in the future. Also there is a model of this saw that has a cast iron router table on the right side and is about 4" wider on the cast iron and comes with legs. It would have ended up being about a $100 or so dollars more if I went this route and I was kind of regretting it as I was building all this but in the end I have a lot more table top top and I saved $60.

I am going to be getting a serious bandsaw in the near future and will definitely be going with a Grizzly after seeing and using their quality.

Final pic of the leveled mobile table saw as it sits, and will probably stay unless I really need to move it for some reason.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/24542520@N06/2459399768/sizes/l/in/set-72157604255423328/
_________________
Have you ever noticed that in woodworking 'good enough' is never really good...nor enough?

Jason

[copperbasinwoodworking]

Excellent write up Pitbull. If I ever get my shop going, I've gotten some good ideas from your experience.
_________________
What if the Hokey Pokey really is what it's all about?

http://ricksrealpitbbq.com/index.php

[Jerry]

Jason,
I have read your post on the Grizzly. Lots of great information. I am also in the same position. I need to upgrade my saw and have looked at Jet, Delta etc. Same issue "cost".

How do you like the Grizzly after a few months of use?


Thanks,
Jerry

[Pitbull]

I like it a lot. I do not use the stock fence system. I use an Incra set up. I was able to sell the fence setup that came with it for $150 on craigslist so it brought the price down even further. If you are going to use Shop Fox fence splurge on the larger rail system so you can cut wider or you will regret it.

I still stand by my opinion that this is the best saw for the money hands down. The power of the 3 v-belt arbor driven by the 3HP motor has not skipped a beat and the build quality is excellent. I was even able to make a quick change splitter out of the original blade guard for free.

Stay posted in the next day or so I will be uploading a how to article of an axillary blade guard modeled after Charles' but with and acrylic hood and dust collection provisions. It will get posted in the Jig section.
_________________
Have you ever noticed that in woodworking 'good enough' is never really good...nor enough?

Jason

[Jerry]

Jason,
Thanks for the quick response and information. I was planning on using the shop fox fence so thanks for the heads up on the larger rail system.
I saw your picture of the splitter system you made. Great use of your resources. I can tell you are very talented. I'll keep an eye out for your blade guard.
Thanks again,

Jerry

[CharlesNeil]

nice write jason....will be anxious to see how you remodeled my guard..sounds great

[Pitbull]

The new guard has now been posted in the Jig section. There is actually 2 different guards I am working on. The second will closely resemble yours Charles and is very easily adjustable height wise, but does not offer dust collection.

The write up on the one I just posted is much more complex to build but does offer the dust collection.
_________________
Have you ever noticed that in woodworking 'good enough' is never really good...nor enough?

Jason

[CharlesNeil]

wow pitt ypu have certainly put alot of time and efort into this,and thanks from all of us

[Pitbull]

Ahh....the time has come to change me fence. Yes, I know....I have been an advocate for the Incra fence forever and have throughly enjoyed using it...BUT

I want longer rails and this is the one place where it becomes a problem with the incra. So my question is, which company has the best fence out there...

From what I have read, Sawstop seems to have made strongest and smoothest traditional style one yet. Can anyone confirm this?

It can be had for $419 with the long rails? Is this worth it over a Shop Fox Classic with long rails for $270?

Any info is good info..
_________________
Have you ever noticed that in woodworking 'good enough' is never really good...nor enough?

Jason

[CharlesNeil]

well you know where me ans saw stop stand, my saw has the long rails, have yet to have to adjust or have an issue...Ss is just hard to beat....you ever give one a good through look see you will se the haevay duty and precision....just the facts....and i have owned about all of them

[birdsill]

I've been using the Saw Stop with long rails for about a year and a half now, and it's been smooth as butter and very accurate. I love it. That said, I've never used an Incra or a Shop Fox, so I can't really give any comparison, but I am a satisfied SS customer.
_________________
Ben Birdsill

[docnewt]

Don't know about the Incra fence but I got my SS for two reasons first Charles has one and cost? can you not afford to SAFETY. I do understand your excitement having that first great table saw enjoy it.
_________________
You can't fix stupid